Answers
Apr 29, 2015 - 11:41 AM
This seems like a non-issue. But again, if you list the specific lesson you are talking about then we can help you better. I think it is normal for words to sound like compound words when not familiar with the language. That is natural. Same as the perceived phenomena that everyone in that language "speaks too fast." It is just because it takes time to process what the speaker is saying. When you are comfortable with the language, it seems to slow down and you are able to recognize the individual words.
I seem to recall that one of the levels states that in German, it is common place that the ending syllable is not often stressed. So it was addressed sufficiently although I do not recall what lesson. I also think the info listed above is common knowledge.
Note also: Abend and Abends are very different in a way
Abend: refer to a single time of an event
Abends: refers to something that happens repeatedly or something that you do every evening.
I would go back and review the tutorial for this info
I seem to recall that one of the levels states that in German, it is common place that the ending syllable is not often stressed. So it was addressed sufficiently although I do not recall what lesson. I also think the info listed above is common knowledge.
Note also: Abend and Abends are very different in a way
Abend: refer to a single time of an event
Abends: refers to something that happens repeatedly or something that you do every evening.
I would go back and review the tutorial for this info
May 01, 2015 - 10:59 AM
Classifying this as a "non-issue" is not sound pedagogy. Second language acquisition involves multiple skills: morphology, semantics, syntax, and phonology. The phonological component cannot be given short shrift. I am not asking for artificial pronunciation (although I think the deliberateness Nora showed in levels one and two was appropriate), but the learner needs also to be told what is phonetically normal in the language.
An example I noticed yesterday was the clipping of final -en in kommen at the end of a sentence. It is true that its stress is penultimate, but the dropping of -en is not what morphology would lead one to expect, even though it is normal. Learners must be acclimated to understand that phonology does not always neatly match morphology in language use.
I have also noticed what might be a technical issue: the clipping of initial words in sentences that might be due to recording or editing problems. This is different than the natural phonological krasis of dependent words (such as sie ist becoming siest). A couple of times I have noticed what sounded as if the initial verb simply wasn't there in the recording. I can't cite a specific example off the bat, but these occur in the final exercises of the lesson where we are to repeat what the reader says. This is likely not a problem if one uses these for practice in pronunciation, but I use them initially as exercises for comprehension, and that is when the problem arises.
An example I noticed yesterday was the clipping of final -en in kommen at the end of a sentence. It is true that its stress is penultimate, but the dropping of -en is not what morphology would lead one to expect, even though it is normal. Learners must be acclimated to understand that phonology does not always neatly match morphology in language use.
I have also noticed what might be a technical issue: the clipping of initial words in sentences that might be due to recording or editing problems. This is different than the natural phonological krasis of dependent words (such as sie ist becoming siest). A couple of times I have noticed what sounded as if the initial verb simply wasn't there in the recording. I can't cite a specific example off the bat, but these occur in the final exercises of the lesson where we are to repeat what the reader says. This is likely not a problem if one uses these for practice in pronunciation, but I use them initially as exercises for comprehension, and that is when the problem arises.
May 01, 2015 - 02:06 PM
This lecture makes no sense to me. I trying to prove your superior knowledge of language learning you have lost me. Without a specific example it is near impossible for someone to try and help with your problem. So maybe seek out a university professor to fulfill your needs because this is above my feeble brain? I apologize because it doesn't seem that I can help you.
The only example that you gave was when listening to the program you perceive "sie ist" as becoming "siest." I tried to explain why this might be the case. " I think it is normal for words to sound like compound words when not familiar with the language. That is natural. Same as the perceived phenomena that everyone in that language "speaks too fast." It is just because it takes time to process what the speaker is saying. When you are comfortable with the language, it seems to slow down and you are able to recognize the individual words." I don't even know how Fluenz would fix this "problem" considering that it is all based on your own perception.
Any language would be different on the street than in a beginners learning course. In Fluenz they are stressing the vocab, structure and sounds to START you off with the language. You develop more understanding of the language and its use in everyday life through other means such as speaking with a native German, etc. not in a beginner course. That wouldn't make sense. I would focus more on the grammar, structures and general pronunciation than worry about what is "phonetically normal in the language" because 1. it would be counterproductive for beginning learners 2. German is such a diverse language, so there is no real "normal" pronunciation or one way of speaking. I would focus on the important parts like the difference between abend and abends and why you use the phrase "Die Frau mit der teurEN Tasche".
There are many great resources on youtube that show German use in everyday life. I would also suggest German movies, music and news. A great channel is Easy Languages: Easy German. Some people "slur" their words more than others and speak at different paces and accents. Is really helpful after you learn the basics.
The only example that you gave was when listening to the program you perceive "sie ist" as becoming "siest." I tried to explain why this might be the case. " I think it is normal for words to sound like compound words when not familiar with the language. That is natural. Same as the perceived phenomena that everyone in that language "speaks too fast." It is just because it takes time to process what the speaker is saying. When you are comfortable with the language, it seems to slow down and you are able to recognize the individual words." I don't even know how Fluenz would fix this "problem" considering that it is all based on your own perception.
Any language would be different on the street than in a beginners learning course. In Fluenz they are stressing the vocab, structure and sounds to START you off with the language. You develop more understanding of the language and its use in everyday life through other means such as speaking with a native German, etc. not in a beginner course. That wouldn't make sense. I would focus more on the grammar, structures and general pronunciation than worry about what is "phonetically normal in the language" because 1. it would be counterproductive for beginning learners 2. German is such a diverse language, so there is no real "normal" pronunciation or one way of speaking. I would focus on the important parts like the difference between abend and abends and why you use the phrase "Die Frau mit der teurEN Tasche".
There are many great resources on youtube that show German use in everyday life. I would also suggest German movies, music and news. A great channel is Easy Languages: Easy German. Some people "slur" their words more than others and speak at different paces and accents. Is really helpful after you learn the basics.
May 01, 2015 - 02:53 PM
Looking at your past comments, you actually address this exact situation. (The sie ist sounding like siest)
" I figure that it is partly a master of getting accustomed to hearing words in context and partly a matter of individual enunciation patterns."
"Sometimes I have difficulty distinguishing woes, also. I replay the sentences several times and, if I still don't understand, I look at the words. Then I listen again, until I hear the distinct words"
So you understand the situation it seems like, which makes this even more confusing. Maybe a chance to use big words?
" I figure that it is partly a master of getting accustomed to hearing words in context and partly a matter of individual enunciation patterns."
"Sometimes I have difficulty distinguishing woes, also. I replay the sentences several times and, if I still don't understand, I look at the words. Then I listen again, until I hear the distinct words"
So you understand the situation it seems like, which makes this even more confusing. Maybe a chance to use big words?
May 01, 2015 - 10:09 PM
Michael, I AM a university professor. I have taught ancient languages for 30 years and have read German for all that time. I am simply trying to learn to speak it for travel I have planned. The issues I raised are valid ones in second language acquisition, which is an entire area of scholarship in modern language study. The reason I flag this is for the official Fluenz people, who are doubtless well informed about second language acquisition. By the way, I would be happy to cite a specific example: Level 3, session 6, concluding exercise. The text reads: Könnt ihr morgen wenn möglich in die Kneipe kommen. Listen to the pronunciation and you will find that she drops the final -en. This is a classic case of phonetic usage by native speakers. The problem arises when students have not been alerted to this. That's all I'm trying to say to and *official* Fluenz staff member.
May 01, 2015 - 10:31 PM
By the way, Michael, one of the challenges I face is that (at 64) my hearing is not what it used to be, even with the help of hearing aids. Nevertheless, I am working very hard to learn the quirks of native speech patterns. To some degree, understanding speech patterns depends on knowing what the form SHOULD be. In fact, for native speakers, the listener's mind automatically supplies the dropped sounds, just as we can read a text that is missing a definite article or a preposition without skipping a beat. For beginning learners, however, understanding when syllables coalesce or final syllables are dropped is crucial.
May 05, 2015 - 10:09 AM
I meant a professor who teaches and knows the German language..
For your example Level 3, session 6: Yes she does not emphasize the last part of kommen. Again this is sufficiently (in my humble opinion) addressed by Fluenz. Unfortunately I do not recall the specific lesson that this was addressed, I am sorry that I can not locate it. They stated that many of the ending syllables are not emphasized and sometimes can be "silent". "The problem arises when students have not been alerted to this." -They have in one of the lectures.
" but the learner needs also to be told what is phonetically normal in the language" "For beginning learners, however, understanding when syllables coalesce or final syllables are dropped is crucial."
I think this (again only in my humble opinion) isn't nearly as important as grammar and vocab. This is more advanced especially when there are no set rules. Everyone pronounces and emphasizes differently. Especially German, which has so many different variations. I know many native Germans who speak very differently from each other. One example that comes to mind is the use of " 'nen" instead of einen or dropping the "e" ending on words like Ich würd' (Ich würde). And obviously many countless others. Because of the foundational knowledge of German I was able to understand by first recognizing what the word should be, and then comparing that to what was actually said. This is hardly a beginners concern.
"To some degree, understanding speech patterns depends on knowing what the form SHOULD be." Fluenz does tell you what the form should be.. That is how you caught it in the first place. "She often slurs words (such as "sie ist" becomes "siest") " I think it is normal for words to sound like compound words when not familiar with the language. That is natural. Same as the perceived phenomena that everyone in that language "speaks too fast." It is just because it takes time to process what the speaker is saying. When you are comfortable with the language, it seems to slow down and you are able to recognize the individual words.
This has garnered enough attention, and I think I have addressed all your complaints. Again in my modest opinion I wouldn't "work(ing) very hard to learn the quirks of native speech patterns" and instead learn the foundations first such as the difference of abend and abends, and why you use the phrase "Die Frau mit der teurEN Tasche". Then you will be able to pick up the "quirks" more easily based on context etc. Viel Gluck
For your example Level 3, session 6: Yes she does not emphasize the last part of kommen. Again this is sufficiently (in my humble opinion) addressed by Fluenz. Unfortunately I do not recall the specific lesson that this was addressed, I am sorry that I can not locate it. They stated that many of the ending syllables are not emphasized and sometimes can be "silent". "The problem arises when students have not been alerted to this." -They have in one of the lectures.
" but the learner needs also to be told what is phonetically normal in the language" "For beginning learners, however, understanding when syllables coalesce or final syllables are dropped is crucial."
I think this (again only in my humble opinion) isn't nearly as important as grammar and vocab. This is more advanced especially when there are no set rules. Everyone pronounces and emphasizes differently. Especially German, which has so many different variations. I know many native Germans who speak very differently from each other. One example that comes to mind is the use of " 'nen" instead of einen or dropping the "e" ending on words like Ich würd' (Ich würde). And obviously many countless others. Because of the foundational knowledge of German I was able to understand by first recognizing what the word should be, and then comparing that to what was actually said. This is hardly a beginners concern.
"To some degree, understanding speech patterns depends on knowing what the form SHOULD be." Fluenz does tell you what the form should be.. That is how you caught it in the first place. "She often slurs words (such as "sie ist" becomes "siest") " I think it is normal for words to sound like compound words when not familiar with the language. That is natural. Same as the perceived phenomena that everyone in that language "speaks too fast." It is just because it takes time to process what the speaker is saying. When you are comfortable with the language, it seems to slow down and you are able to recognize the individual words.
This has garnered enough attention, and I think I have addressed all your complaints. Again in my modest opinion I wouldn't "work(ing) very hard to learn the quirks of native speech patterns" and instead learn the foundations first such as the difference of abend and abends, and why you use the phrase "Die Frau mit der teurEN Tasche". Then you will be able to pick up the "quirks" more easily based on context etc. Viel Gluck
May 05, 2015 - 09:12 PM
Sorry, but your brushing off issues of pronunciation and comprehension entails a very odd notion of language acquisition.