Answers
Aug 09, 2013 - 11:04 AM
If you mean "den" as the definite article ("den Mann") one place you use it is when a masculine noun ("der Reis," "der Kuli") is the direct object of a sentence as then it's in the accusative case ("Kaufen Sie den Kuli?"). There are also a set of prepositions (durch, für, gegen, ohne, um) that always have the accusative case after them so you use it there as well ("Ich möchte das Tagesgericht ohne den Reis.")
Another use of "den" is as the definite article for plural nouns when they are the indirect object of a sentence as then they are in the dative case ("Ich schicke die Frau den Speisekarten.") There is also a set of prepositions (aus, bei, mit, nach, seit, von, zu, gegenüber), that always have the dative case after them so you use it there as well ("Ich möchte das Tagesgericht mit den Käsen.")
Another use of "den" is as the definite article for plural nouns when they are the indirect object of a sentence as then they are in the dative case ("Ich schicke die Frau den Speisekarten.") There is also a set of prepositions (aus, bei, mit, nach, seit, von, zu, gegenüber), that always have the dative case after them so you use it there as well ("Ich möchte das Tagesgericht mit den Käsen.")
Aug 10, 2013 - 05:40 AM
Vielen Dank!
Aug 15, 2013 - 06:27 AM
Hi Rob, we're all very happy here at the FluenzLab to hear about your German improving!
Concerning "den", what Mbanash says is generally correct:
1) It's the accusative case masculine article, which is used for direct objects and after a number of prepositions:
Ich brauche den Computer (I need the computer)
Er hat den Mann gesehen (He saw the man)
Das Geschenk ist für den Lehrer (The gift is for the teacher)
etc.
2) "Den" is also used for plural nouns in the dative. The dative is used after certain prepositions, (e.g. mit, zu, neben, etc.) and also for indirect objects.
Indirect objects generally answer the question "to whom" or "whom":
Ich gebe den Frauen die Schlüssel (I give the keys to the women)
So: To whom do I give the keys? To the women. That's the indirect object, so: Den Frauen
There are specific verbs in German that require the use of the dative case, e.g. "helfen" (to help). You're just going to have to memorize these as you learn them. In the Fluenz program, we will always tell you if a verb requires a dative, and there aren't many of them.
Here's another example:
Ich helfe den Frauen (I help the women)
Whom do I help? The women!
So "den Frauen" is a dative again.
This is a bit tricky, and does take time to get used to, so don't let it deter you!
To memorize the various articles for the cases, it helps me personally, to make myself tables like this:
Nominative Der Mann Die Frau Das Kind Die Personen
Accusative Den Mann Die Frau Das Kind Die Personen
Dative Dem Mann Der Frau Dem Kind Den Personen
And then learn the declension mantra like this: Der Mann, Den Mann, Dem Mann, Die Frau, Die Frau, Der Frau, etc.
After a while you won't need the mantra anymore, but it helps hugely to have them ready "stored" in your brain in an orderly manner. And getting this order requires a mental process that again helps your learning!
3) One last point: Unfortunately, Mbanash didn't get their dative examples correct:
Ich schicke die Frau den Speisekarten - can you already see the problem here?
It's "Die Frau" that's the indirect object here:
To whom do I send the menus? So it should be in the dative case: Der Frau.
And "Die Speisekarten" is the direct object, which answers the question: What? What is it that I'm sending to the woman? - The menus, "Die Speisekarten".
So this sentence would be correct like this:
Ich schicke DER FRAU DIE SPEISEKARTEN (I'm sending the menus to the women)
And if you wanted a plural indirect object, try this one:
I'm sending the menu to the people
Ich schicke DEN PERSONEN DIE SPEISEKARTE
Regarding the second dative example: Der Käse (The cheese) is a noun that doesn't have a plural. If you want to say "the cheeses" you'd have to say "the kinds of cheese": Die Käsesorten.
Like in English, you wouldn't use an article in this sentence here and just say:
Ich möchte das Tagesgericht mit Käse
I want the daily special with cheese
But thanks for trying, Mbanash! It's also part of the process (and in your case, restarting the process) of trial and error.
Keep up the good practice both of you!
Concerning "den", what Mbanash says is generally correct:
1) It's the accusative case masculine article, which is used for direct objects and after a number of prepositions:
Ich brauche den Computer (I need the computer)
Er hat den Mann gesehen (He saw the man)
Das Geschenk ist für den Lehrer (The gift is for the teacher)
etc.
2) "Den" is also used for plural nouns in the dative. The dative is used after certain prepositions, (e.g. mit, zu, neben, etc.) and also for indirect objects.
Indirect objects generally answer the question "to whom" or "whom":
Ich gebe den Frauen die Schlüssel (I give the keys to the women)
So: To whom do I give the keys? To the women. That's the indirect object, so: Den Frauen
There are specific verbs in German that require the use of the dative case, e.g. "helfen" (to help). You're just going to have to memorize these as you learn them. In the Fluenz program, we will always tell you if a verb requires a dative, and there aren't many of them.
Here's another example:
Ich helfe den Frauen (I help the women)
Whom do I help? The women!
So "den Frauen" is a dative again.
This is a bit tricky, and does take time to get used to, so don't let it deter you!
To memorize the various articles for the cases, it helps me personally, to make myself tables like this:
Nominative Der Mann Die Frau Das Kind Die Personen
Accusative Den Mann Die Frau Das Kind Die Personen
Dative Dem Mann Der Frau Dem Kind Den Personen
And then learn the declension mantra like this: Der Mann, Den Mann, Dem Mann, Die Frau, Die Frau, Der Frau, etc.
After a while you won't need the mantra anymore, but it helps hugely to have them ready "stored" in your brain in an orderly manner. And getting this order requires a mental process that again helps your learning!
3) One last point: Unfortunately, Mbanash didn't get their dative examples correct:
Ich schicke die Frau den Speisekarten - can you already see the problem here?
It's "Die Frau" that's the indirect object here:
To whom do I send the menus? So it should be in the dative case: Der Frau.
And "Die Speisekarten" is the direct object, which answers the question: What? What is it that I'm sending to the woman? - The menus, "Die Speisekarten".
So this sentence would be correct like this:
Ich schicke DER FRAU DIE SPEISEKARTEN (I'm sending the menus to the women)
And if you wanted a plural indirect object, try this one:
I'm sending the menu to the people
Ich schicke DEN PERSONEN DIE SPEISEKARTE
Regarding the second dative example: Der Käse (The cheese) is a noun that doesn't have a plural. If you want to say "the cheeses" you'd have to say "the kinds of cheese": Die Käsesorten.
Like in English, you wouldn't use an article in this sentence here and just say:
Ich möchte das Tagesgericht mit Käse
I want the daily special with cheese
But thanks for trying, Mbanash! It's also part of the process (and in your case, restarting the process) of trial and error.
Keep up the good practice both of you!